Why Less Is Best in Course Design with Michael Bungay Stanier

CLab - Michael Bungay Stanier (COMBINED) [00:00:00] Michael: It's Michael Bungay Stanier. Okay, perfect. [00:00:00] Ari: Hello and welcome to Course Lab. I'm Ari Eny, the Director of Growth at Miracy, and I'm here with my co host Abe Crystal, the co founder of Rizuku. Hey Ari! Today we welcome Michael Bungay Stanier to the show. Michael is the founder of MBS Works and author of the book How to Begin, Start Doing Something That Matters. Welcome to course lab, Michael. [00:00:10] Michael: Hey, I'm excited to be here. Like I am a geek about what it takes to develop and design really wonderful learning experiences. So I think this is going to be a great conversation. [00:00:20] Ari: I'm looking forward to it. So to kick us off, could you give us kind of the 30, 000 foot view of yourself and how you came to the world of course building and online course building as well? [00:00:32] Michael: Yeah. So I'm, um, I'm a 55 year old man currently living in New York, uh, New York, Toronto, the New York of Canada. Um, but I'm Australian originally, um, and grew up happily in Australia left Australia when I was, uh, in my mid twenties, I won a Rhodes scholarship that took me to England to Oxford to study, which of course is its own experience about how learning happens. There was, there was some dark sides and some light sides on that. Um, My key achievement at Oxford was falling in love with a Canadian, literally 31 years [00:01:00] ago is today's the anniversary of our 30, our first date, 31 years. Oh, amazing. Congratulations. Well, thank you very much. Um, and from, um, my time at Oxford where I did a master's degree in literature, I moved into the world of innovation. So I spent time helping to invent and create new products and new services for people and involved me running focus groups, talking to people, and then trying to figure out what they were whispering about what they really wanted. But this is my first taste of, um, learning and development on two levels. One is the very act of doing a focus group is an act of being consumer centric. It means that you're now putting the people who are going to be using the product at the heart of the conversation. Um, and so it. It has kind of stained me in a, in a good way to think about how design works, because, you know, often course design, people get a bit, they get a bit caught up on how important their content is like, ah, your content is overrated. The experience of your people is really the central part of it. And the, and the problem you're solving for them [00:02:00] is such a key part of that. But with this company also, I started, uh, do my first facilitation and training. Um, I moved to a consulting world, um, moved from London to Boston, Boston to Toronto in 2001. And shortly after that set up my first company called Box of Crayons. Now when I started, I didn't really know what I was doing. I had some coaching skills, some facilitation skills, some, uh, Um, there was a bit of a grab bag, but Box of Crayons found its focus in, uh, offering practical coaching skills to busy managers and leaders. So the book I am best known for is a book called The Coaching Habit, which came out seven years ago and it sold a million and some copies and Box of Crayons brings, uh, training programs to managers and leaders and. 14 1000 companies to help them be more coach like to change their behavior. Um, and then the other company I run, uh, MBS dot works is more. B2C, you know, Boxing Crowns, B2B, selling to businesses, uh, MVS. Works, [00:03:00] B2C, selling to individuals. And here we've got two, um, problems we solve. One is, uh, people who are in midlife going. What next for me? What am I doing with my life? I'm 50, um, I'm still feel relatively young and vital, but my kind of formal career is I can see the horizon for that. What am I doing? So we have a program that supports that and a membership site. And then we also provide support for people in smaller businesses who are coming, um, in wanting kind of management skills as well. [00:03:30] Ari: Okay. So, and these are the kind of two courses that you're, that MBS works. [00:03:37] Michael: Yeah, that's right. So we've got, we've actually got two, um, two programs and MBS. works and one to be launched sometime next year. And then in Box of Crayons has a kind of a single singular piece of intellectual property, but it has, um, programs built out in all different formats so that it can scale globally in big companies. Awesome. [00:03:56] Ari: So something that I find, uh, interesting is. [00:04:00] Of the different problems that you solve, I feel like a lot of them are concrete, except for that one, you know, what next program? So can you tell us a little bit more about how you came to that? And kind of, do you see it? I mean, I'm looking at it from, you know, I've heard. All of three minutes about it, but it seems to me like it's very different versus, you know, teaching management skills or teaching coaching or that kind of thing. [00:04:23] Michael: Yeah. So part of the dilemma we have with mbs. works is we have really two, two brands and two different problems that we solve under a singular umbrella. And we're actually just going through a review at the moment to decide whether we keep it like that or whether we split them up. But in terms of making that, um, That program feel more tangible for you on the book I wrote a year and a half ago is called how to begin, start doing something that matters. And that's the book from which this program flows. So I would think about it like this. This is, this is how I often try and teach people about how to speak to a problem. I don't like elevator pitches because you know, it's like you're shouting at somebody in an [00:05:00] elevator for a minute. That's right. Weird and terrifying. But if you say to him, um, Hey, you know, when you hit. like mid 50s, you suddenly go, Ooh, retirement, suddenly closer than I thought. And hopefully somebody, the person I'm talking to, you go nods their head. And you know, Uh, when you, when you contemplate retirement, part of you is going, but I'm too young to retire. I'm still feeling pretty young and pretty vital. I've got a good 20 years left and you know how actually one of the anxieties you have around time is how am I going to fill my life? What am I going to do? But wouldn't it be great? If retirement meant climbing the second mountain, finding the next big thing, actually contributing in a different way to your society in a way that was thrilling for you, important for the world, but also helped you learn and grow. Well, that's what we do with how to begin. We help people who are midlife, don't worry about retirement, but find their next big thing so they can do something that is thrilling [00:06:00] and important and daunting. That's [00:06:02] Ari: awesome. And so it's clear to me. What the program does. And again, it feels like a little bit of a departure. Uh, and so, and I mean, you mentioned that you're to the, it's so much of a departure that you're considering splitting it off to be its own separate entity. Yeah. Um, so tell, can you tell us a little bit more about a, how you came to that topic? Like why that versus again, the more concrete stuff that you were teaching. And second, what are the challenges that you see in. Working with people on that versus something like management skills or coaching skills or, or that kind of thing. [00:06:38] Michael: Well, I came to it because, um, the way I create. Is I get to the end of a project like a book that I've written and I spend a short period of time feeling depressed and confused and like wandering the, the, the, the desert of misplacement going, I don't know what I'm doing. What's the point of it all. But at a certain point I get my mojo back. And then. The language [00:07:00] I use is I take my next best guess on the next best project to work on. So, I'm in fact looking for something that feels thrilling and important and daunting for me. Thrilling means that I care about it and it lights it up. Important meaning it serves the world. And daunting meaning it's going to stretch me and grow me. So, you know, what was, I guess, three years ago when I was, um, starting to go, well, what's next? I had a range of different books and a range of different projects that I was contemplating, but this book around kind of figure out what the next big thing was, just was the one that kept kind of going, I'm the project, pick me, pick me. Um, so that's how, that's how that kind of came to bear. And so I'm like, this is the thing that's calling me. So I'm going to write, I'm going to write that book. Um, Now, is it more tangible? I, I think What you're maybe pointing to Ari is, um, a strength, which is actually, it speaks to a really specific type of person. So I don't know how old you are, but you don't look like you're in [00:08:00] your mid fifties to me. I'm going to say you're like, yeah, what are you like 38 or something? 35. 35. Exactly. So you're like, 35 is one version of midlife, but there's a whole nother version waiting for you in like a decade and a half. So you're like, I don't even get what you're talking about. Cause I'm not that person. I'm not trying to sell this program to you because you're not in your mid fifties. And so you're like, well, it all feels a bit intangible. I'm like, not to people who are in their mid fifties, people that, and not to everybody who's in their mid fifties, but people who are like. I don't, I don't want retirement meaning me to be wheeled out into the middle of a field and, and left to rust. I want my retirement to be active. I want it to be, uh, contributing to the world. Mm-Hmm. I want it to actually stretch me and grow me. I don't wanna retire and kind of ossify. I wanna become alive. I want this leap from work to whatever's next to be an act of freedom and courage and adventure. And so for the people who. Of that, they're like, Oh, [00:09:00] I get what this is about. This is actually something that really speaks to me. So the people who love it, love it. Um, and that's part of the choice you make when you solve a really specific problem is as most of the world who are like, I don't even know what you're talking about. And to be [00:09:15] Ari: clear, I think. It is a critical thing to be teaching because I feel like a lot of people are feeling lost and want to find their next thing. I guess what I'm trying to get at what I'm trying to understand better is. So it's, you know, it's not a, or possibly it is a prescriptive thing. It feels like the other pieces that you teach are a bit more prescriptive. There are skills that you build, but here it's more of a inner exploration that people need to, to go through. And so I'm curious about how you teach that. Yeah. [00:09:50] Michael: So, um, we, there are two different experiences that people go through. The first is the program that they go through. Um, It's actually a quest to [00:10:00] find their best guess at their worthy goal. This is this thing that's thrilling, important, and daunting. You're like, you're just trying to figure it out. So it's actually helping them understand what thrilling, important, and daunting is, helping them go through a process of iterating it, because your first draft of your worthy goal is never going to be your final one. Sure. So it teaches them how to go through three fast iterations to kind of get closer. See, um, your Trying to, you're playing with the, the knobs on your mixing board of thrilling, important, and daunting, but you're trying to get most of them as high as possible. So you're like, this is the best expression of a goal that will keep pulling me forward during the times I want to lie down and quit. Because the very nature of a goal that is daunting means there are times where you're like, it's really hard. And I don't know what the hell I'm doing. Exactly. So you're doing the work to articulate that you're doing the work in this course to figure out what does it mean to commit to this? There's so many of these courses. You're like, [00:11:00] well, it's like, it's pretty good. I've done the theoretical work, but I'm not going to do anything about it. So there's a work around. All right. What does commitment look like? What are you going to say yes to? What will you say no to if you really say a strong yes to this? So there's that process. And then there's a. a bit of teaching around how do you take the first steps. So this doesn't get them to complete their worthy goal, it gets them to define their worthy goal and get a bit of momentum going. But then what follows that is an invitation to join a membership group. And so the membership group is a place of It's a community. So a place of encouragement, a place of support. We have people work in small groups, like groups of five, and they support each other through cycles of action and commitment, and then moments of reflection and then a set a new cycle of action. And so this is less about, so let me keep giving you more content. This is more about. All right, what is that? There's a quote, you know, probably know this better than me, but um, no, knowing without doing is not knowing. So this is the, this is the, well, let's, let's see, [00:12:00] because it all falls apart and then reforms again differently when you actually. Kind of encountering reality. So the, the conspiracy as it's called is the community that deepens the learning through the doing. Mm hmm. And is [00:12:17] Ari: that facilitated by you and your team or are they working like they're given direction than just working themselves with themselves essentially in their [00:12:24] Michael: group? Yeah, we, we, um, have spent a lot of time building infrastructure that self facilitates the group. Okay. So when people join, there's a really strong onboarding process. Like we've really over invested in that because we want people, I've just joined so many membership groups where I spend the first time going, I don't know what's going on. Right. I feel, I feel confused and disorientated and lonely and like, uh, I've wasted my time and money joining this cause nobody's even. It's like, I'm in a party, cool people, and I'm in the corner holding a sweaty drink going, this is a mistake. Um, so we spend a lot of time on the onboarding process, set them up in [00:13:00] groups of, um, four or five. We have a really clear six week cycle that they go through, and we set minimum expectations of how often they'll meet in that time. Um, I teach once a month, so that's my, my contribution is to teach once a month. Um, but we host on circle, you know, which is a platform that is designed to support communities. Um, and, uh, there's ongoing things like, you know, uh, opportunities to work together. So that classic turn on, turn on your screen and just sit for an hour and do your work with other people. So we, um, have built infrastructure. That keeps inviting people to stay engaged and keep making progress, but we're doing it in a way that is trying to, um, have people also build their own sense of independence and interdependence with other people in the community, rather than a kind of hub and spoke thing where everybody looks to me as the so called guru, which is. A exhausting for me and a bit [00:14:00] boring and a bit, um, a bit of a burden, but also more importantly is kind of goes against my philosophy, which is like, I'm trying to de guru the world and have people find their own wisdom and their own community and their own support. That's awesome. [00:14:13] Ari: And one additional benefit is also that it [00:14:16] Michael: scales. And it's carefully. That's right. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. [00:14:21] Abe: Uh, I mean, how did you arrive at that structure? [00:14:22] Michael: Uh, how did we arrive at that structure? Well, the six week cycle, it's like six weeks on two weeks off is, um, a classic agile structure. So from kind of project management, which is, you know, you, you make your commitment, you work like as hard as you can on the thing that you're working on for six weeks, then you stop and you reorient and what's powerful about that for me is that. You know, in six weeks, you can make a lot of progress, but also if in six weeks, you've chosen the wrong thing to work on. It's only six weeks. So the opportunity cost isn't too great. You get a chance to kind of reorient around that. Um, I also knew that, um, it felt like, uh, um, an unscalable and unsustainable act to.[00:15:00] Make a membership site that was about delivering new content or more information. I'm like, it's about community and it's about making progress together. So, um, we experimented with it, Abe, you know, we started off with slightly larger groups, but right from the very start, we had this idea of small groups working together, um, making progress, building friendships, building community, doing the work. [00:15:24] Abe: Just kind of interested in how you would. Like link that to like a larger philosophy or how you think about design programs in general, I think, as you alluded to a couple of times, like a lot of people tend to approach courses from the perspective of content, right? Or like, Hey, I need to provide content and get very locked into that way of thinking, you know, how do you, or I guess kind of speaking to other course creators. You know, how would you guide people to, you know, think about it from a different perspective, I guess. [00:15:50] Michael: Yeah. Well, I have a very strong opinion about this, which is my goal is to, I'm always asking whether it's a book or a program or a speech, what's the least I can teach [00:16:00] people that would be the most useful. Because I think often course creators are adding value. As a safe adding content as a safety net to prove how a how smart they are and how much they know, but also you surely can't complain about this program because it is stuffed full of stuff. And so it takes a certain confidence to keep stripping content back. So there is space for people to actually sit with. The, the limited amount of content you're giving them and wrestle with it and be with it and work with it. And, um, you know, I just know that most of the time, you know, my, my working philosophy, or my, and this is science based, um, in, in principle, if not in exact details is my, I assume that people's brains are full after six minutes. Like they got about six minutes of you pouring content into them before their brains are now full and then content is just, it's like pouring water into a full glass. You're like, yeah, congratulations. You've got wet carpet. You, you [00:17:00] look, you may have an empty jug going, look how much I've poured out, but you're like, you haven't poured that into a glass. You just got a wet carpet. I'm like six minutes. Give them a chance to reset, clear the cash, drink the glass and then, and then go again. And so it creates a whole discipline around not just how do I keep stripping content out, but how do I design it in a way that teaches a bit, engages with it, processes it, clears the cache, teaches the next piece of content. [00:17:30] Abe: What does that clearing the cache [00:17:32] Michael: look like? It's often just a chance to engage in it. So, you know, the simplest way is to go, great, before I go into the next bit, what was most useful or most valuable about this for you? Write that down. Now turn to the person next to you and share what was most useful and most valuable with the, with another person or break it, share it in the chat, or I'm going to break you into groups of three. And, um, you'll, you'll go into groups of three on zoom or in, in real life and you'll process it. And then I'll pull everybody back. Hey, so what was most [00:18:00] useful or most valuable about that? And I'm like, Oh, you thought that great. Oh, you thought that fantastic. Oh, you got that. So there's this kind of way you're unifying the group. Um, and then I'm like, great. So that was really helpful. I'm glad you found that useful and valuable. So I'm seeding this idea that this process is really useful and valuable. And I'm like, great, now let me get on with the next thing. [00:18:19] Abe: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I feel like a pattern I sometimes see is people kind of set up their course in like a sequence somewhat analogous to what you're describing where it's like, hey, there's some content and then Here's an exercise you should do. And then here's like a discussion question to talk about it with people in the course. And you kind of see, like, it's like super active at the beginning. And then it just kind of like, you know, it becomes cricket to the end. So I'm just curious if you have thoughts about like, how do you kind of keep the energy going? [00:18:46] Michael: Yeah, well, um, you want to set expectations and disrupt expectations. Um, um, so if, if people go, oh, I see the pattern that's always happening here. Oh, they're about to ask me for another, another talk [00:19:00] about it with a partner. I'm kind of getting bored with that. Um, so I, I, I, I asked people right at the start of a course, how will you collude with yourself to opt out of this course? Like I get, I just, I just say, look, if we're doing an online course, you know. Statistics tell you 5 percent of you are going to finish this course. Now, do you want to be in the 5 percent or the 95%? Because you've got a choice, um, around this. And, you know, you can say, look, I'm going to do all I can on my end to make this amazing and useful and practical for you. But, um, what, um, How, what do you already know about yourself in terms of how you get in your own way of finishing these things? What do you need? Um, and you know, you offer, offer opinions, you know, do you need an accountability buddy? Do you need, um, something from me to be checking in on you? You need a way that you, you disrupt the course. So rather than having a start and a finish to your course, you have four starts, start, finish, start, finish, start, finish, start, finish, or you have four mini courses. Cause I'm like, you know what? It's really hard for me to finish a 13 week [00:20:00] course, but I can finish for three week courses. [00:20:03] Abe: Yeah. That's really interesting. I like the, the ideas of the questions of getting people to, to reflect on what their own, you know, motivations and barriers might [00:20:11] Michael: be. Right. Because one of the things that happens with you as a course designer is you go, Oh, it's my responsibility to get people to finish their course. And I'm like, well, they're also adults making choices. Um, I don't want this to be me. I don't want this to be a patronizing experience and slightly, you know, when you go, it's my job to get people to finish this course, you're kind of infantilizing the participants in your course. So I'm always going, so how do I treat them as adults? One of them is the light. Let me, let me show you the choices you have. And let me encourage you to make the braver choice, but then it's your choice in the end. [00:20:46] Abe: Yeah, really interesting. Other things that you would like to share? Is there, I mean, I feel like this is something you're very passionate about. So are there other things you'd like to share with that you feel like more course creators should be thinking about and doing? [00:20:56] Michael: Well, um, the, the other piece of course [00:21:00] design that I have found really helpful comes from a kind of upstream, a starting point. And this comes from a writer called Don Miller, who wrote a book called Story Brand and a bunch of other books. And He said to me once people buy medicine, not vitamins, and a lot of course designers are trying to sell vitamins or look, this is going to supplement your life beautifully. And actually, until you understand the pain that this course and the problem solves or the problem, this course solves, um, you're going to get a pretty anemic uptick because actually people, people don't buy vitamins, but they do buy medicine. So, um, for many people, and it took me a while to get there, it takes a bit of effort to kind of go, okay, I want to speak to the pain. But if you don't understand the pain and you don't understand the problem you're solving, or it's a version of the, if you don't know what harbor you're sailing to, every wind is the right wind. If you don't know what problem you're solving, every piece of content [00:22:00] is useful. But if you know, I'm trying to solve this problem, then you get really clear on the content that is helpful for you to share. Something that [00:22:09] Ari: you mentioned before, um, and I think this plays into it as well is, you know, share as little as possible, essentially, you know, what is the minimum viable? Um, so I'm curious as to your process for getting there, you know, essentially, what can be cut? What shouldn't be cut? And, uh, how ruthless [00:22:27] Michael: can you be? I write endless drafts, like, you know, that saying writing is editing. I don't think that's true. Like this little book is about 20, 000 words. It's like between 20 and 25, 000 words. I wanted it to be under 20, 000 words, but we went over, um, but I gave my editor a really clear brief. I'm like sub 20, 000 words. So You know, stab this through the heart with a red pen. So I get people to, I get other people to edit to, you know, kill their darlings as the saying goes. Um, but I've also just, um, I'm relatively unsentimental about the. The stuff that I create, so I [00:23:00] created lots of courses and written lots of books and written other stuff, but what's out in the world pales in comparison to all the stuff that has been cut and abandoned and I've already forgotten about it. This [00:23:12] Abe: is great. All right. Was there anything else you wanted to ask her? Michael, anything else that was popping up? [00:23:12] Michael: I think I'm pretty good. If you, if you guys think this is great, then we can teach as little as possible and still make it useful. We can, we can drop the mic and leave it at this. [00:23:12] Abe: I mean, we've already gone over our six minute recommendations. So, um, yeah, let me just do a quick, uh, quick readout for you. [00:23:12] Ari: Oh, uh, actually just before that. So, uh, Michael, where would you like, uh, or actually let me start that over. Where would be the best place for people to find you and kind of learn more about what you're [00:23:18] Michael: doing? Well, thanks for asking. So best possible relationship is where people can find out about the new book, how to work with almost anyone. But in general, the website is mbs. works. And that gives you access to all the resources and all the courses and all the books that I've got. And every single book has a bunch of free stuff that comes with it. So you're welcome to come and pillage from mbs. works. Awesome. [00:23:41] Abe: We're going to direct people there right now. Thank you. Michael Bungay Stanier is the founder of MBS works to learn more about him, how to begin and all his other courses. You can head on over to mbs. works. That's mbs. works. [00:23:56] Ari: Awesome. Thank you so much, Michael. [00:23:58] Michael: This has been awesome. [00:24:00] I enjoyed it too. Thanks for having me. It's very soft. You [00:24:02] Abe: have, I've known your work, you know, since way back in the day, even back, I think when you were like doing stuff with David Allen. So it's cool. [00:24:02] Michael: Wow. That's that is way.